Transform Your Team’s Culture Today - Dr. Vanessa Druskat

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[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to be a leader who's perfect at everything.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We do have to have other people around, get a link in on to help you do that stuff.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You need to have trusted people around you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Plug into the mind of the world's cutting edge innovators, visionaries, and thought leaders who are rewriting the rules of sales and success.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's your time to make an impact.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I am your host, Jason Mark Campbell, and this is The Selling With Love Podcast.

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[SPEAKER_01]: and he's in German, welcome back to the Soundlethal of Podcast, very excited about the conversation today, which isn't going to be as closely related to sales, but something I've been very interested in lately is leadership.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I've been working with teams and managing organizations that have small groups, teams, humans interacting together, and I'm very, very curious about the topic right now.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So you will see a trend of these episodes that I'm doing, which are more focused on leadership, team management, and truly scaling with love.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm so excited about the conversation today because it introduces a new element to consider when you're working with humans in an organization.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We've heard of emotional intelligence on an individual level, but what does it look like when collections of people come together at work and have a certain level of team emotional intelligence?

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[SPEAKER_01]: This is a concept I've never explored thoroughly, and luckily we have a globally recognized expert in team performance and the pioneering force behind the concept itself of team emotional intelligence.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Vanessa Erstrovskut is joining us and she has her award-winning article building, Emotional Intelligence Group.

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[SPEAKER_01]: As in Core III with S-Woof, is one of Harvard Business Reviews' most reprinted leadership pieces and just recently.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Her book, The Emotional Intelligent Team, has just come out, which is all about building collaborative groups that outperform the rest.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Forward by Daniel Goldman, who have him on the podcast before, and she's also a TEDx speaker, and she's here as a PhD in social psychology at Boston University, Masters at Columbia and Indiana, respectively, and her teaching, speaking writing, has been helping organizations around the world understand how to unlock this high performance team dynamic by exploring how emotional intelligence plays a powerful role.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm excited to dig into that and a little bit about how it happens in sales teams as well.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Vanessa, welcome to the show to pleasure to have you here.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you so much.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's really my pleasure to be here with you and your audience.

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[SPEAKER_01]: First off, congratulations on the book.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I know that's always a big project.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And in your case, you are bringing an entire new field to life.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Like I've heard of emotional intelligence, but I have a feeling you've noticed something was missing when a group of people come together in the workplace.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So I'd love to speak about the each that existed that motivated you to say we need to develop this team emotional intelligence aspect.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, a great question, Jason.

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[SPEAKER_00]: There were two itches.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Let me say.

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[SPEAKER_00]: First itch is around the idea that I don't think we recognize how often we work in teams and how much better we think or we can't think when we're in teams.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So our brain really is wired for teamwork.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're learning more and more about this through, I would say in the last ten, fifteen years of neuroscience and social anthropology, biological anthropology.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're learning that we evolved.

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[SPEAKER_00]: in small groups and tribes.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so the primary skill we needed to survive besides our physical strength was our ability to work together.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so our brains evolved in such a way that we're really good at mind reading.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're good at conducting and I can look at your phase station and see what you're thinking.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Therefore, we can think together very well.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so, first point that's important is just really that I think so much of our world is focused on individuals and we're not encouraging teamwork enough, at least good teamwork, that that was part of my mission.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The other thing is that when we talk about teams, we often think about teams as individuals, bringing a bunch of individuals together.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So a lot of team research and a lot of team building focuses on getting the right people in the room, saying getting emotionally intelligent people on your team.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But my research shows, and it's not the only, I can tell you how mine differs from others, but it's not the only research that shows that what matters more in a team is how you interact, because every interaction generates a motion.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that emotion can either support the genius of the people around you, or it can support frustration, or, you know, myriad of other emotions.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, my research really has looked at what are the ways we need to interact, what are the norms, the interaction norms that support well-being for team members, but also performance for teams.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so my focus is on that on norms and culture in teams.

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[SPEAKER_01]: actually you said the word that was coming to my mind as you were explaining this is that I see culture being something that is closely resembled but it sounds like we're focusing more on the emotional component of culture so I'd be curious to know if there's a how would you differentiate the team emotional intelligence and the overall culture of an organization.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, first of all, every social interaction is an exchange of emotion.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And culture really is about how people interact in the organization, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the way we do that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So emotion is always part of it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The question is whether or not you think about the kind of emotion you're stirring up and the emotional outcomes that you're looking for.

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[SPEAKER_00]: For example, one of the emotions, emotional outcomes I'm always looking for is trust.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And psychological safety, which is a term I heard you mentioned in another conversation we had.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So culture and emotion are really synonymous.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But one more piece about that, everyone always thinks about the culture of the organization.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But what sociologists have long known is that what really matters is what they call the local culture.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The culture of the people around you, the people you interact with most often.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So if you're on teams, you're analyzing the organization's culture based on your interaction in those teams.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the culture that matters most our everyday interactions.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know, you might not know this, but in the concepts of my book which is selling with love, I speak about how every sale is an energy exchange and what most people miss is that in every sale is an emotion, every transaction has an emotion.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'm so excited that you're actually speaking the exact same language as what I'm trying to do with the field of sales, working within the space of teams.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And it's so true that this emotion happens yet.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's not something that's

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[SPEAKER_01]: quantified, but it's felt like I've stepped into teams where people are not trusting each other.

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[SPEAKER_01]: People are guarded.

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[SPEAKER_01]: There's maybe people trying to one up each other, which would typically be defined as a sort of toxic type of culture or an unhealthy team dynamic.

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[SPEAKER_01]: That seems to be something we speak a lot about.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It seems like it's maybe common in the workplace and I'd be curious as to why is it that it seems to be the default mode.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That was my question.

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[SPEAKER_00]: When I started studying this, you know, I had been in some great teams in my youth and sports teams, things like this as I was growing up.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And when I got to the workplace, it just wasn't like that at all.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And I think that, you know, first of all, our reward systems reward individual behavior.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And we don't bother building teams.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We don't bother teaching leaders how to build teams.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And teams are really about relationships.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, we've already both agreed that every interaction is an exchange of emotion.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Well, in teams,

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[SPEAKER_00]: You want to make sure those emotional exchanges end up building collaboration, trust.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I value what you say.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I listen rather than I'm on the defensive and trying to protect my own idea because I'm sort of selfish about how what I want to move forward in the team is my idea, not your idea.

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[SPEAKER_00]: These are the kinds of things that happen a lot in organizations.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So we just don't teach people how to do it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And this is another one of my huge issues and one of the reasons why I wrote the book.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I've made it my business to go around and look at what leaders are learning and how to build teams and they're not really learning what's necessary to build trust.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What they're learning about is how do you help someone an individual be competent

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[SPEAKER_00]: not how do you help the interactions to be more confident.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So in teams, what you're really looking for is not necessarily the interaction between the leader and the individuals that would be emotionally intelligent interaction.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You're looking for emotionally intelligent interactions among the team members.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So I'm treating you with respect.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm listening to you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Like you are right now, nodding your head, looking at me.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'll tell you that matters in teams, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: That kind of thing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, let me stop and let you ask a follow-up question.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I can say, I mean, to me it's the fact that I look at a lot of the teams and you spoke about the benefits when it's on a local level is actually more important.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And it makes me want to ask the question where I've noticed when it's very small teams, founder, maybe a bunch of friends, or just like the first five people that get on board on a project,

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[SPEAKER_01]: That seems to be something that naturally will have a healthy team dynamic.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But I've noticed when it gets to a certain level, a certain size, then there seems to be like misunderstandings, there seems to be moments of like people getting frustrated, things not being clear, and it kind of starts to break down when you start adding more people.

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[SPEAKER_01]: And so I'd be curious about that phenomenon and at what point does that seem to happen in organizations?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, absolutely.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I have to put a plug from one of my favorite articles of all time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's in Harvard Business Review.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's called Evolution and Revolution as Organizations Grow.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it's all about exactly what you're mentioning here, which is that in the beginning,

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you're building your culture together.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, you're all in this together.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But as you get larger, you have to put in formal processes.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You have to put in rules and regulations.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, you and resource issues become important.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's just as a metaphor.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so that's a really critical time to change the way you do things or revisit, evaluate.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And again, I think, talk together about how are you going to manage the larger-sized people and continue to have trust with one another.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm happy to hear that this article has been around for almost twenty thirty years because I think it was out in ninety eight and this is not a new problem.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But as I'm getting into a position where I'm taking on these leadership roles and I'm working with these organizations usually between like the one to three million dollar range, maybe how to dozen employees or so.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This seems to be always the issue like people call me because they say I want more sales I want to grow and I come in and I'm like oh well you guys are all visionary leaders with great ideas but you don't have any management principles and it's almost like they run to an upper limit and this seems to be the missing key

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, this is absolutely missing Kate.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And it is.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's the management principles.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What are the routines?

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[SPEAKER_00]: What's going to be routine?

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[SPEAKER_00]: What's going to be a habit here that everyone's going to buy into?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the other thing is this is there's this great paradox as you get larger.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's considered a paradox in teams anyway, which is that you have to meet the needs of the group.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The shared goals to meet the shared goals.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You have to meet the needs of the group.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But you also have to meet the needs of the individuals.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You have to treat them, you know, like they want to be treated.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so what this really means is you've got to manage that back and forth between.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We're growing.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What does the organization need?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And as we grow, what are we losing?

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[SPEAKER_00]: What are the needs that we have?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so you've got to pay attention to both.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And anyway, the article is, I think, really helpful enough.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you know, when you say this, it sounds a lot like you need to sell everyone on the group's vision and the group's common goals so that everybody's enrolled and enlisting into wanting to do that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, I am also very biased.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I feel like every interaction is a sales interaction in a healthy way.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's so cool.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I need to listen to your podcast and hear what your folks talk about because, you know, right now is the first time I'm marketing something really which is this book and I'm getting the stress of marketing when you're not used to it and every interaction in my life at the moment needs to be a sales interaction.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But let me just say this about the vision that you're talking about, you know, I've been researching this topic for a long time over researching teams and you absolutely need to have a mission of vision, you know, objectives goals, shared goals that are emotionally engaging for people.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But that alone isn't going to motivate the teamwork and the selflessness and the camaraderie and the collaboration.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It just doesn't do it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It can only take it so far.

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[SPEAKER_00]: What you really need here is, you know, dare I use the word love because part of your podcast, what you really need, what you really need are people who care about one another and that's what team buildings all about.

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[SPEAKER_01]: So you're saying the Beatles are right.

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[SPEAKER_01]: All you need is love.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I can't say that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's not for everything.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But you do need enough love, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And obviously, well, I can just tell you that we've known this in this psychology realm for a while that when you care about the people in the team and you know they care about you, you give more.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You engage in more.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that's teamwork.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's what teamwork requires.

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[SPEAKER_01]: You know I've noticed also there's an impatience that comes from usually the founders are the leader because they have big visions they want to grow they want to impact like they're so mission driven that at the beginning it's like everybody's pulling their bootstraps they're all together at a certain organization size

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[SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes it's perceived like the founder is unrealistic.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They don't have an understanding of capabilities.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The impatient creates stress dysfunction.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They often come in being like, I need to just go and do everything myself and disrupt the teams.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Maybe the psychological safety gets compromised when that comes to butt heads around.

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[SPEAKER_01]: The limitations and organization faces because they can't operate like they always did to get to where they are.

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[SPEAKER_01]: They need to change and move forward.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Now start thinking more in team concepts.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I've noticed that in a few organizations I work with.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I feel through your research this must have been a common theme that happens and do you have any recommendations or thoughts for the leader who has this impatience and has to realize that this component is important.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I'm very familiar with it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Very common.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And the leader's passion is not necessarily about developing the team members.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's about the mission of the organization itself.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And that can get the leader into trouble.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We've known by the way for a long time that sort of the motive pattern of leaders that don't get in that trouble, involve the desire to develop others.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This is on a continuum, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: So we all desire to develop others.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But if you're passionate for the work, for the idea, you know, when you're the entrepreneur, when you're the prime mover as we say, you know, you're focused on what you want and it's difficult to prioritize developing others, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: And so how do you get around that?

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[SPEAKER_00]: Because good leaders are focused on developing others.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's what people want.

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[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So you want to listen to what they have to say.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You don't micromanage your hand things to them.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You listen to them.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You take the time to coach them a little bit.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You care about their development.

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[SPEAKER_00]: These kinds of things that when you're an entrepreneur can feel like a big old waste of time.

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[SPEAKER_00]: When your crap sucks.

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[SPEAKER_00]: But you don't want turnover.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You want good people around you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You want to keep good people around you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So here's what I have to say about that.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You don't have to be a leader who's perfect at everything.

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[SPEAKER_00]: We do have to have other people around you to lean on to help you do that stuff.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You need to have trusted people around you.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, some of you can pull aside and say, I'm getting really tense.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, about this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: All right.

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[SPEAKER_00]: This is how I feel about this.

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[SPEAKER_00]: How is this resonating with the team, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: You can send them out to do some of that developmental coaching work.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, that's why I see the works.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Every leader doesn't have to be good at everything.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I, uh, a friend of mine wrote an article about this once, and, and she called it achievement motive run a mock.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.

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[SPEAKER_00]: A. M. O. C. K. Which means that your desire to achieve what you want with the business can run a mock and get in the way of really developing the overall organization.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I've witnessed this so much, but it's so nice to hear because I mean, you're so exposed to all the cutting edge research and all the stuff that's happening in studying this.

17:33.179 --> 17:42.088
[SPEAKER_01]: And you know, oftentimes it's like people will paint a bad stroke on the leader because it lacks empathy, but it's like it's such a passion.

17:42.128 --> 17:43.930
[SPEAKER_01]: It's like I don't have time for this.

17:43.970 --> 17:45.391
[SPEAKER_01]: And it's not that they're evil.

17:45.451 --> 17:46.813
[SPEAKER_01]: They're just so mission driven.

17:47.493 --> 18:00.664
[SPEAKER_01]: And to me, this is such a relief for anybody who's listening to this and may be recognizing themselves as understanding, maybe the core skills is how do you attract the leadership team that can handle some of these issues so you can stay focused on what you do amazingly.

18:02.089 --> 18:03.169
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.

18:03.630 --> 18:12.776
[SPEAKER_01]: I'm on the other side is for me, I love working with those individuals because in essence, I don't have that crazy focus passion for a driver.

18:12.976 --> 18:23.563
[SPEAKER_01]: I love aligning myself with the people that have that because I can handle all this stuff and you know, there's so many of those personality assessments like profiling tools and like I always know which peg I fit.

18:24.043 --> 18:29.187
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I work with those creators that are just quote unquote crazy, we need those crazies.

18:29.723 --> 18:30.524
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, yes.

18:30.784 --> 18:34.367
[SPEAKER_00]: We need the crazies, but the biggest thing they need is self-awareness.

18:34.387 --> 18:39.411
[SPEAKER_00]: They need to know that they're robbing people the wrong way sometimes and you can't do it without a team.

18:39.892 --> 18:50.441
[SPEAKER_01]: With team emotional intelligence that encourages, because here's something I might assume as a false narrative is like, oh yeah, we never argue as a team that means we have a healthy team emotional intelligence, right?

18:51.637 --> 18:52.598
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, it doesn't work that way.

18:53.118 --> 18:53.299
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

18:53.919 --> 18:59.224
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't want conflict in your team, it's because you don't understand why you need conflict in your team.

19:00.304 --> 19:06.149
[SPEAKER_00]: And what you want are people to push one another to clarify their thoughts.

19:07.070 --> 19:09.912
[SPEAKER_00]: and to bring out the best in one another.

19:09.972 --> 19:17.937
[SPEAKER_00]: So for example, if you and I are arguing about something, I come back and I retort to you and I have to get real clarity on what I'm thinking.

19:18.498 --> 19:29.185
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to come back to me with the same kind of clarity and it really pushes us and everyone around us to think differently and that is a great ingredient for a team.

19:29.625 --> 19:32.367
[SPEAKER_00]: But it can hurt relationships.

19:33.648 --> 19:36.011
[SPEAKER_00]: So you have to invest in relational repair.

19:36.031 --> 19:40.416
[SPEAKER_00]: You have to take the time to recognize that was a tough conversation.

19:40.436 --> 19:44.180
[SPEAKER_00]: What do you need to know to repair your relationship right now?

19:44.440 --> 19:45.561
[SPEAKER_00]: You talk about that kind of thing.

19:46.082 --> 19:52.589
[SPEAKER_00]: If you don't, people are going to engage in those conversations because they're going to be afraid of harming the relationship.

19:53.830 --> 19:57.973
[SPEAKER_00]: I can say more about that, but the whole idea of conformity in teens.

19:58.474 --> 20:00.715
[SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a little bit misunderstood.

20:01.196 --> 20:03.738
[SPEAKER_00]: People think that we just decide we're gonna conform.

20:03.758 --> 20:05.479
[SPEAKER_00]: We're just, well, I'm just gonna go along.

20:05.879 --> 20:07.260
[SPEAKER_00]: I don't think that that's true.

20:07.300 --> 20:08.521
[SPEAKER_00]: I'm gonna go along anyway.

20:08.861 --> 20:10.363
[SPEAKER_00]: That's not how the brain works.

20:10.743 --> 20:14.406
[SPEAKER_00]: It's usually the brain gets, and we know this from neuroscience now.

20:14.886 --> 20:21.391
[SPEAKER_00]: The brain gets an error signal when you think differently than someone who's got higher status than you.

20:23.223 --> 20:28.564
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's the error signal is about, am I going to harm this relationship if I bring this up?

20:29.024 --> 20:32.525
[SPEAKER_00]: And don't you think somebody else would bring this up if it was true, right?

20:32.805 --> 20:33.086
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

20:33.926 --> 20:39.607
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, this is where, like I've seen the error is that you get into an echo chamber, nobody challenges the Oracle or the boss.

20:40.487 --> 20:43.748
[SPEAKER_01]: And then it's almost like, OK, we're going to go with their ideas.

20:43.848 --> 20:48.509
[SPEAKER_01]: And when it doesn't work out, I'll be able to feel good and say, yeah, I could have said anything, but I know they wouldn't listen.

20:49.030 --> 20:50.530
[SPEAKER_01]: That to me is like the worst.

20:51.383 --> 20:53.284
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, that was the worst.

20:53.684 --> 20:54.784
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody likes it.

20:54.864 --> 20:55.464
[SPEAKER_00]: Nobody likes it.

20:55.864 --> 21:04.347
[SPEAKER_00]: One of my really telling moments was when I was leading a workshop with a bunch of very high-level people in organizations.

21:04.387 --> 21:05.627
[SPEAKER_00]: They were vice presidents.

21:06.248 --> 21:08.268
[SPEAKER_00]: They were surgeons and hospitals.

21:08.308 --> 21:13.710
[SPEAKER_00]: It was a collection of very, very high-level people that got together for a course that they were taking.

21:14.270 --> 21:17.671
[SPEAKER_00]: And I said to them, hey, when you disagree with your boss, what do you do?

21:17.971 --> 21:19.672
[SPEAKER_00]: Do you hold back or do you let it out?

21:20.592 --> 21:21.813
[SPEAKER_00]: They laughed at me.

21:22.954 --> 21:23.834
[SPEAKER_00]: They said, are you kidding?

21:23.874 --> 21:25.155
[SPEAKER_00]: We don't disagree with our boss.

21:26.076 --> 21:27.537
[SPEAKER_00]: You've got to be kidding, Vanessa.

21:27.857 --> 21:28.877
[SPEAKER_00]: We need their support.

21:28.897 --> 21:30.238
[SPEAKER_00]: They've got power over us.

21:31.239 --> 21:34.701
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, this was twenty years ago, and it was the highest level group I'd ever been with.

21:34.741 --> 21:36.042
[SPEAKER_00]: And I knew it happened to lower levels.

21:36.102 --> 21:37.923
[SPEAKER_00]: I didn't realize what happened at all levels.

21:38.604 --> 21:38.844
[SPEAKER_01]: Wow.

21:39.764 --> 21:43.487
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I don't want to get political, but I'm sure we could think of examples in political fields, right?

21:43.507 --> 21:44.607
[SPEAKER_01]: There's maybe some of these at it.

21:44.947 --> 21:45.608
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we could.

21:48.416 --> 21:49.017
[SPEAKER_01]: Allegedly.

21:49.317 --> 21:50.158
[SPEAKER_00]: Allegedly.

21:50.278 --> 21:50.838
[SPEAKER_00]: Allegedly.

21:50.858 --> 21:51.799
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're going to go there.

21:51.819 --> 21:51.999
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

21:52.259 --> 21:55.862
[SPEAKER_01]: By the way, I'm having so much fun on this conversation because it's something I repetitively witnessed.

21:55.902 --> 21:59.005
[SPEAKER_01]: But I might go back to something earlier because we've had a lot of fun talking.

21:59.025 --> 22:06.071
[SPEAKER_01]: And I think most people are going to recognize when these issues happen, whether they're in a leadership position or on the receiving end as we're speaking as well.

22:06.571 --> 22:16.520
[SPEAKER_01]: But the key thing I want to pull on is the fact that you said most leaders are developing certain skill sets that helps them work on the individuals, but they're missing a component to help them develop this team emotional intelligence.

22:17.200 --> 22:23.195
[SPEAKER_01]: Where should be leaders pointed to what should be the things they actually do pay attention to to make them more effective?

22:24.361 --> 22:28.562
[SPEAKER_00]: Sure, well, what they need to do is look at the norms.

22:28.883 --> 22:30.663
[SPEAKER_00]: So what are the routines in the habits?

22:31.263 --> 22:39.386
[SPEAKER_00]: So frankly, this is one of the, not that I want to be selling my, my book on your podcast.

22:39.446 --> 22:40.927
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

22:41.327 --> 22:41.967
[SPEAKER_00]: With love, right?

22:41.987 --> 22:48.089
[SPEAKER_00]: One of the things I've added to what my mentors did before me, my mentors recognized the idea that norms mattered.

22:48.709 --> 22:52.531
[SPEAKER_00]: So my colleagues and I went out and looked at, well, what are the norms that matter most?

22:53.491 --> 22:57.196
[SPEAKER_00]: And I can tell you three clusters of norms we found that mattered most.

22:57.657 --> 23:06.448
[SPEAKER_00]: But before I do that, let me just say, what I think it really matters is having a conversation with your team around, what kind of environment do we want to build here?

23:07.467 --> 23:09.048
[SPEAKER_00]: And how is it going right now?

23:09.589 --> 23:10.389
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we need more of?

23:10.449 --> 23:13.171
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we need less of and start to have those conversations?

23:13.732 --> 23:24.060
[SPEAKER_00]: So that alone will, especially if you follow up on what people say, that alone will help you move closer to having control over your environment.

23:24.880 --> 23:33.290
[SPEAKER_00]: So many leaders don't realize that it's a human superpower to be able to create the environment you want.

23:34.051 --> 23:36.093
[SPEAKER_00]: You're not stuck with an environment.

23:36.334 --> 23:38.656
[SPEAKER_00]: But I had a conversation with the leader earlier today.

23:38.676 --> 23:41.600
[SPEAKER_00]: It was telling me about the environment in their group.

23:42.801 --> 23:45.844
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, this is happening and then there's this argument.

23:46.184 --> 23:46.945
[SPEAKER_00]: So here's the thing.

23:47.445 --> 23:48.226
[SPEAKER_00]: You don't need that.

23:48.967 --> 23:52.209
[SPEAKER_00]: Let's step back and evaluate and say, what's leading to it?

23:52.550 --> 23:53.471
[SPEAKER_00]: How is that happening?

23:53.811 --> 23:59.756
[SPEAKER_00]: And so let me unveil the three clusters of norms that we learned about in our research.

24:00.617 --> 24:07.383
[SPEAKER_00]: The first primary cluster that has to happen is what we call, how do we support one another succeed?

24:07.803 --> 24:09.605
[SPEAKER_00]: So this is all about the individuals.

24:10.990 --> 24:22.080
[SPEAKER_00]: What you really need to do is build this sense of belonging in the group, a sense that you're known, that you're cared about, you're mutually supported, which basically means what goes around comes around here.

24:22.140 --> 24:24.622
[SPEAKER_00]: And in this group, we're going to support one another.

24:24.642 --> 24:25.683
[SPEAKER_00]: We're going to respect one another.

24:26.002 --> 24:28.644
[SPEAKER_00]: So that's the first cluster and this is what we see in great deans.

24:29.504 --> 24:30.945
[SPEAKER_00]: They know they're respected.

24:31.966 --> 24:39.811
[SPEAKER_00]: And I want to come back to that in a moment because you can't respect someone all the time and perfection is not needed, right?

24:40.391 --> 24:42.653
[SPEAKER_00]: So but you need to at least check that box sometimes.

24:43.213 --> 24:51.617
[SPEAKER_00]: The second cluster is about constant checking in evaluation since making together about, you know, where are we going?

24:51.677 --> 24:52.758
[SPEAKER_00]: Are we aligned?

24:53.178 --> 24:54.479
[SPEAKER_00]: Is this a good direction?

24:54.899 --> 24:56.360
[SPEAKER_00]: What's right about this direction?

24:56.400 --> 24:57.681
[SPEAKER_00]: What's wrong about this direction?

24:57.721 --> 24:58.641
[SPEAKER_00]: What do we need to tweak?

24:58.701 --> 24:59.682
[SPEAKER_00]: How do we need to adapt?

25:00.022 --> 25:01.182
[SPEAKER_00]: What's coming down the pike?

25:01.463 --> 25:11.788
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this is another set of norms that we see in the great teams, which really is about, you know, assessing what they're currently doing and how they need to adapt for what's happening now and in the future.

25:12.203 --> 25:16.571
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the third set of norms is about reaching out for knowledge outside the team.

25:17.913 --> 25:23.138
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, no team is an island shouldn't be in lower performing teams.

25:23.698 --> 25:26.080
[SPEAKER_00]: The team just thinks they've got everything that they need in the team.

25:26.100 --> 25:27.281
[SPEAKER_00]: They don't have time to reach up.

25:27.722 --> 25:30.124
[SPEAKER_00]: In the great teams, they're bringing thought leaders in.

25:30.444 --> 25:32.246
[SPEAKER_00]: They're talking to their boss's boss.

25:32.746 --> 25:35.128
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, they're bringing in clients, customers.

25:35.609 --> 25:42.235
[SPEAKER_00]: These days, you can bring them in on a thirty minute video conference call and say, hey, you know,

25:42.715 --> 25:48.261
[SPEAKER_00]: Give us some feedback on this, or let us ask you some questions about how you manage these issues that we're dealing with.

25:48.662 --> 25:52.867
[SPEAKER_00]: And it's so easy to do and it keeps you connected, which is what happens.

25:53.147 --> 26:02.537
[SPEAKER_00]: If you're in an organization that can keep you connected across groups on the hierarchy of groups, you know, people above you, people below you, if there's a hierarchy,

26:03.512 --> 26:04.633
[SPEAKER_00]: So those are three clusters.

26:05.153 --> 26:07.694
[SPEAKER_00]: These are just the norms that we find in great teams.

26:08.294 --> 26:10.195
[SPEAKER_00]: We've taken them out into the work world.

26:10.255 --> 26:13.276
[SPEAKER_00]: We've built these norms and teams and changed their cultures.

26:14.857 --> 26:16.618
[SPEAKER_00]: So you define what you want.

26:17.018 --> 26:19.179
[SPEAKER_00]: You go out and you change the culture that you're in.

26:19.479 --> 26:19.899
[SPEAKER_00]: Make sense?

26:20.880 --> 26:21.620
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think rare.

26:21.640 --> 26:28.123
[SPEAKER_01]: I might add the word, which is you need to take responsibility for the culture that unconsciously manifested.

26:28.960 --> 26:29.260
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

26:30.081 --> 26:30.261
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

26:30.381 --> 26:30.821
[SPEAKER_00]: Brilliant.

26:30.961 --> 26:31.282
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.

26:32.362 --> 26:32.803
[SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

26:33.263 --> 26:46.112
[SPEAKER_01]: And what's beautiful about what you just said is that it's not something that like this stickiness of this team emotional intelligence, how much resistance you usually find to making that change start happening like

26:46.532 --> 26:52.595
[SPEAKER_01]: Is it something that's like, oh my god, this is gonna be the hardest thing we've ever done as a team or is it something that, you know what?

26:52.675 --> 26:59.398
[SPEAKER_01]: Now that we actually pay attention to it, it's actually flowing and maybe there's some key variables that make a difference to that tension.

27:00.611 --> 27:01.591
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, absolutely.

27:02.512 --> 27:23.720
[SPEAKER_00]: What we find is that usually if there's an assessment done in the beginning so they can look out with the current culture is, and everyone's involved in defining the culture they want to create to help them as individuals but also help the performance of the team, then there is some excitement about the idea of making these changes.

27:24.841 --> 27:26.503
[SPEAKER_00]: everyone wants to be in a better team.

27:26.543 --> 27:29.987
[SPEAKER_00]: Again, I mentioned to you that we're wired to one of our teams.

27:30.267 --> 27:38.777
[SPEAKER_00]: In fact, we now know neuroscientists find that we actually get an emotional high and dopamine hit when we are collaborating with others in the team.

27:39.358 --> 27:44.504
[SPEAKER_00]: So anyway, people that get excited about it and then they find out it requires change in behavior.

27:46.726 --> 27:48.650
[SPEAKER_00]: So you nail it, you guessed it.

27:49.291 --> 27:55.061
[SPEAKER_00]: And so often what I do when I work with a team, I'll come back two weeks later, I'll call them and I'll say, how's it going?

27:55.402 --> 27:58.007
[SPEAKER_00]: And they'll say, nothing's changed.

28:01.120 --> 28:05.045
[SPEAKER_00]: You're doing the things you decided you were going to do?

28:05.405 --> 28:05.765
[SPEAKER_00]: No.

28:06.266 --> 28:13.474
[SPEAKER_00]: And so this is where again, the leader has to become the, I can't remember the phrase that you use, but the phrase I use is the culture manager.

28:14.175 --> 28:19.481
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what I recommend is that the leader assign these new norms to people in the team to manage.

28:20.622 --> 28:24.944
[SPEAKER_00]: So this person can be in charge of the first bucket, second bucket of somebody else.

28:25.345 --> 28:37.791
[SPEAKER_00]: And then the leader makes sure that they empower that person, call on that person, make sure that person is bringing in to the team what they need to remind him about the norm and reinforcing it, et cetera.

28:38.151 --> 28:40.272
[SPEAKER_00]: So then, then it kicks off.

28:41.053 --> 28:47.836
[SPEAKER_00]: And you know, then it waxes and wanes, but we've worked with a lot of teams that have kept us going for a long time and it really has out.

28:48.530 --> 28:53.251
[SPEAKER_01]: I've often heard debates about making change in organization having a bottom-to-top top-down approach.

28:53.471 --> 29:00.953
[SPEAKER_01]: This one seems like something that you need to first go together as a leadership team and it has to kind of get decided at the top or else.

29:01.333 --> 29:04.113
[SPEAKER_01]: The bad habits at the top are probably what ruins the tree.

29:05.494 --> 29:06.854
[SPEAKER_00]: You should be a consultant.

29:08.334 --> 29:08.874
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I am.

29:10.495 --> 29:11.975
[SPEAKER_00]: You should be only a consultant.

29:13.066 --> 29:15.567
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, ideally, ideally.

29:16.127 --> 29:17.187
[SPEAKER_00]: And that really helps.

29:17.367 --> 29:20.528
[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I've been in those situations.

29:20.668 --> 29:25.689
[SPEAKER_00]: And because the leadership at the top, they don't realize the way they engage in things trickles down.

29:26.389 --> 29:28.929
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, leaders are the last to know so many things.

29:29.649 --> 29:34.670
[SPEAKER_00]: And so that works, well, except for that's not always where, you know, we're called into help.

29:35.331 --> 29:39.871
[SPEAKER_00]: Or, you know, you're counting, therefore, on the top, people at the top to get it and know it.

29:40.492 --> 29:42.392
[SPEAKER_00]: You know, and that's just not the way the world works.

29:43.930 --> 29:44.070
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

29:44.892 --> 29:53.754
[SPEAKER_00]: So helping it starts in the middle, I've worked with teams in the middle and changes have worked so well for the team, people are more engaged that they've brought me into them, go up to the top.

29:54.345 --> 30:18.403
[SPEAKER_01]: I could definitely see that happen because you know I've witnessed that when an organization gets a bit bigger like in hundreds of people as you mentioned the small teams have their microorganisms right and I've seen some of these microorganisms be super healthy maybe one over there not so healthy and then even if the top is not super healthy they can create their healthy little environment within that organization and they're kind of wishing that it happens but

30:18.983 --> 30:24.509
[SPEAKER_01]: It's hard to make it spread everywhere if there's not recognition, appreciation of its benefit from the top.

30:25.129 --> 30:32.837
[SPEAKER_01]: And so yeah, we're hoping this episode is getting all of you visionary leaders out there to have buy and on the importance of how this is going to help you.

30:33.377 --> 30:37.902
[SPEAKER_01]: Lead bigger teams have bigger impacts and remove that limit or you've been facing in your organization.

30:38.602 --> 30:39.062
[SPEAKER_01]: Question.

30:40.002 --> 30:50.145
[SPEAKER_01]: If you're in an earlier stages of your organization, we talk about how it naturally works pretty well and maybe at the beginning you start up your together, but are there some things we could be more conscious about?

30:50.425 --> 31:05.068
[SPEAKER_01]: Because the team emotional intelligence becomes unconsciously set, but what are things we could become more conscious about even at the early stages that could make it so that when we get to the size that it just don't work no more, it's not as big of a change or maybe we've already started doing the good things.

31:06.128 --> 31:10.311
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, well, so first of all, let me say that not every entrepreneurial team starts off great.

31:11.171 --> 31:12.492
[SPEAKER_00]: I've talked to a lot with that haven't.

31:13.012 --> 31:20.657
[SPEAKER_00]: So if it is starting off, well, wherever it is getting along, you're already ahead, but you need to plan for this at the beginning.

31:21.017 --> 31:27.041
[SPEAKER_00]: And so what I mean by this, we know that right at the start teams begin to build norms.

31:28.141 --> 31:30.423
[SPEAKER_00]: And there is no such thing as a team without a norm.

31:31.444 --> 31:43.692
[SPEAKER_00]: And the way it works is you get in the room together, who's got higher status than whom, who gets listened to most closely, you know, who does what, how long do the meetings last, you know, all kinds of little things.

31:44.012 --> 31:46.594
[SPEAKER_00]: When do we meet, do we meet without people?

31:47.034 --> 31:48.055
[SPEAKER_00]: Some people, they can't make it.

31:48.915 --> 31:55.300
[SPEAKER_00]: These kinds of norms need to be discussed and they need to be intentional right from the get go.

31:56.260 --> 31:58.382
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, that doesn't mean they need to be static.

31:59.123 --> 32:05.950
[SPEAKER_00]: You set something up early on, and then you adapt it three weeks later, or whatever you need to.

32:06.470 --> 32:14.778
[SPEAKER_00]: But the norms that I see crush entrepreneurial teams early on are the ones where some people get more of a say than others.

32:14.958 --> 32:17.180
[SPEAKER_00]: These are status issue norms, right?

32:18.061 --> 32:19.723
[SPEAKER_00]: Now, you can't erase status.

32:21.104 --> 32:21.464
[SPEAKER_00]: You can't.

32:21.845 --> 32:25.127
[SPEAKER_00]: We want to have someone we can look to when things go wrong.

32:25.348 --> 32:26.529
[SPEAKER_00]: Who's the first person we look at?

32:27.009 --> 32:32.434
[SPEAKER_00]: With permission video taped a lot of teams, I show those teams to my students, I say, who's got the status?

32:34.035 --> 32:36.657
[SPEAKER_00]: Anybody off the street can tell you who's got the status.

32:36.977 --> 32:37.538
[SPEAKER_00]: We know it.

32:37.578 --> 32:38.539
[SPEAKER_00]: We know it's there, right?

32:38.799 --> 32:40.801
[SPEAKER_00]: It's who gets listened to most closely, right?

32:41.301 --> 32:45.224
[SPEAKER_00]: But the person with the highest status doesn't know everything.

32:46.165 --> 32:49.047
[SPEAKER_00]: Great teams listen to everyone.

32:50.257 --> 32:59.583
[SPEAKER_00]: And what you want to do is build a culture where you are using all of the talent in the room and not leaning on the high status folks.

33:00.043 --> 33:03.005
[SPEAKER_00]: And especially, we are making a lot of risky decisions in the beginning.

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[SPEAKER_00]: And we know from decades of research that teams, where everyone's participating, you know where the norms are effective in the sense that everyone gets their safe, there's some equity in the process, they make far better decisions than individuals.

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[SPEAKER_00]: So you want everyone participating.

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[SPEAKER_00]: That's one of your norms that I always emphasize is a norm about listening, head nodding, nonverbal behavior, you know, like you're doing with me right now.

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[SPEAKER_01]: For those of you who are just simply listening to the podcast, you're missing out on all the amazing visual cues that are happening through that conversation.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Yes, you're really about Jason's nodding his head and smiling.

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean, which is a signal?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I contact, by the way, signals acceptance, asking follow-up questions, signals that you're really listening and you care about and you feel a person's smart and contributing something.

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[SPEAKER_00]: You know, there's a lot of little things like that, especially in the beginning that you have to go out of your way to do so that you can build those interactions that then start to flow.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Vanessa, the time has flown and I've had such a great conversation on this and I think for everybody has been listening and have also been leaning in and understanding that there's such a beautiful realm that can help organizations scale to the next level with which you've just shared.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I know we kind of avoided a lot of the sales conversation that we usually have, but quite honestly, I'm very excited about having these types of talks because I'm seeing that once you've figured out the sales, what's the next thing that happens?

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[SPEAKER_01]: Well, you're making sales inside of the communication within your team.

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[SPEAKER_01]: How do we get people to buy and how do we understand how we interact?

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[SPEAKER_01]: How do we make sure that we're looking into everybody's best interests?

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[SPEAKER_01]: How do we listen more?

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[SPEAKER_01]: These are so closely related to skills that transmute to how you deal with clients.

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[SPEAKER_01]: It's just internal clients and I just love these kinds of chat, but if I see a lot of questions today and there's one question I say everybody on the show I have to ask you as well, which is you ought to podcast called this selling with love podcasts.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Would you have a definition of what's selling with love means to you?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I like it.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It would mean a couple things.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It would mean really interacting with the person that you're selling to in a way that's very caring and concerned with what their needs are and that you're focused on them more than you are on yourself and how what your selling can fulfill their needs.

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[SPEAKER_00]: The other part would probably be something about loving what you're selling, right?

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[SPEAKER_00]: I mean tapping into that and making sure that that's coming across in the interaction.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Vanessa Draskot, this was a fantastic conversation.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I'm very glad we got a chance to interact.

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[SPEAKER_01]: But those of you who are listening and we want to actually send you over to the emotional and intelligent team, building collaborative groups that outperform the rest, just released right now.

35:51.204 --> 35:52.565
[SPEAKER_01]: You can pick it up on the major platforms.

35:52.585 --> 35:57.866
[SPEAKER_01]: You'll put a link into the show notes so you grab yourself a copy, absolute, amazing tool that will help you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Push that upper limit.

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[SPEAKER_01]: If you're seeing you want to grow their stagnation, the problem will usually come down to your internal teams, the humans within it.

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[SPEAKER_01]: and not on an individual basis, but this collective emotional consciousness that evolves within the team.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We need to look into that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: We need to take responsibility for it and realize that it can be changed.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Businesses tools are going to help you do that.

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[SPEAKER_01]: Vanessa, thank you so much for coming on the show.

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[SPEAKER_01]: This was very lovely and so enlightening for me, and I'm very glad we got a chance at this conversation.

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[SPEAKER_00]: It's been my pleasure, Jason.

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[SPEAKER_00]: Thank you.

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[SPEAKER_01]: I am your host, Jason Mark Campbell, and this is The Selling With Love podcast.